Forcing No Counts On Purpose Is A Cheat!!!

**Inso «Ð*§*§»** · 12-03-2003, 09:15 PM

The sole responsibility of a no count kill truthfully resides in the fact that in v15 splash damage is treated the same as a pilot running into a tree or the ground. Period without any question in my mind. Add to that the fact that v15 did not count a suicide against a pilot it adds up to a true no count kill niether for nor against either pilot involved. It has become rampant for a few reasons The rate at which you fire does in fact create more no count kills, very simply put, if it takes 3 stingers to kill you and the person shooting at you fires one pauses for a half a second then fires again, pauses for a half second then fires again that small delay is enough time for any one of those stingers too time in between the flare release and actually hit the helo if the LAST portion of health was dropped by a stinger that hit and not splash damage the kill will count, if it was splash damage it wont. All that matters is that last hit period!!! Now look at it this way if you fire 6 stingers as fast as you can (macro or not dosnt matter I can empty 28 stingers in 2.7 seconds just pulling the trigger, and 1.1 seconds holding the enter key down) If that first stinger hits a flare, the two behind it will hit that same "cloud" if you will now imagine all six hitting the first two or three flasres out you have a splash kill 90% of the time. If you delay your stingers even slightly your kill count will rise to a peak and then taper off as you delay too long. So yes your fire rate does effect the number of no counts that YOU recieve in your kills. If you have any doubts about this put 2 pilots in a server together, using stingers have that second helo hover tail towards you while straffing left and right, test using different fire rates and watch the difference. The second half of that is the flares, the faster you release them the more likley your opponent is to hit them instead of you thus resulting in a no count kill. Lastly IMHO its rapant due the fact that as more became aware you could increase the number of no counts in your favor more used it, remeber back in march of 2001 when 8h didnt exsist to the masses, once a few dozen found out it was exploited like mad, the same has happened here.

So is it a cheat or isnt it? Well depends on who you are I guess. Too me it is exploiting a bug in the game with the intent on winning at any cost. That sounds like war not fun to me, if my life trulydepended on it bet your @zz Id be frirst in line to do whatever I could too stay alive, but in a game I dont feel that need for survival sorry! So if you call that fun go for it! If you dont, find someone else to fly against and stop flaming each other. Remeber we are all different ppl with different goals and different ideas of what is and is not fun, just because playerX dosnt see it your way dosnt mean he's a ( picj a word) nor are you for not agreeing with his.

If you must fly toghter then do so knowing full well on the way in what you have AGREED TO by the mere fact that you joined that server! Dont like the rules of the house, Host your own and have fun!!!

Inso out-----

**GarretJax** · 12-03-2003, 09:31 PM

Hey Im in agreement with N_E as far as forcing no counts to "increase your score" per say.......I think when my little green life line goes out, my chopper blows up and then inturn I respawn.......something or someone has taken that "little green line" and taken it to '0'......tree.hill.mountain.biulding and such.........and if I blow up for any of the above then it should count (ie. GarretJax crashed) and should take a point away so inturn if I blow up battling with someone (splash damage or not) my little green line goes out and the opposing pilot is the cause........1 point for them........I can accept that..........maybe next time ill be a liitle quicker or maybe even out manuever him...there lies the challenge......better than basically "getting away with one"...Just my opinion!.....

**WiperSix«L·R·S»** · 12-03-2003, 10:21 PM

clarify one thing please inso. The flaring. when the instance I was referring to happened (2 on 2 in fast server, low pings) noone was flaring except auto flares. can auto flare be turned off and solve this ?

(I mean, flying hard is half the fun. I personally don't see it as any different than ducking and hiding. In the real tests on the copter there were rumors from Texas that at certain attitudes the chopper can't be locked. so it makes sense that it is conceivable that it could possibly avoid stingers anyway.)

wiper

**Reaper** · 12-03-2003, 11:56 PM

Now that this is going to be civil. I will add my 2 cents. First as a no count forcer I'll be the first one to admit the scoring sucks. Id like to see the game score a point for every time you blow a player up. Splash damage is a joke. As for forcing tho maybe the wording should be changed. The no count isn't what I really want when I start the motion that will most likely bring it. What I want is to get that last stinger to take health to 0, To do that I need to stay alive long enough to get the shot I need. When players are strafing that shot is very hard to get. Even players that don't force on purpose do it rather they know it or not. That motion you see where the player is moving in a straf with his nose up is what brings most of them. Or turning your nose in so the stingers slide past does also. It's the same 1 players use to starf out all 28 stingers. It is the same play more than half the players use. When I die most the time I still have stingers in my stores. The reason for that is I didn't have the time to shoot them all yet. The other player has unloaded every thing and killed me, And yes he did kill me. The training I give is not to stop other players from scoring there point. It is to help players score theres more often. The problem goes back to the scoring and how it reads how you died. It's to bad the game plays this way, The scoring in version 2 is just as bad it scores the splash damage. That's great but why does it say the other player killed you but yet you suicide. Again the scoring is flawed. I don't see a way to fix this. I can say I have been using a micro where my stingers and cannon rotate the idea being cannons cause fewer no counts. And yes it has helped, But it has also raised my heat sig so I cant force near as much. I can live with that All I want is the point on the kill.You deserve yours to no problem there. The last thing I would like to add is this The players that force also have a lot of no counts also. And as a player that forces I also want to see version 2 used more often. I even went out and got it months back. I don't see this as if it's a cheat or not I see it as how do we score in a game that has the scoring the way it is. Theres no secret, I show players any thing I think will help them score points. So if the players that have a problem with this can show a better way to score I bet every player would use it. Un till that time lets get AE for version 2 and give players what chose it will give them. That's not a shot at you INSO I have more respect for you than any 1 in c4. But I see no room here for players to agree on no counts I speak only for the way I use them and what I train players to do.

**Inso «Ð*§*§»** · 12-04-2003, 12:29 AM

My hat is off to you reaper!
The end here may never be that we all agree to do it this way or that way,
but at the very least we all need to respect each others opinions.

**OhNo** · 12-04-2003, 01:31 AM

**OhNo** · 12-04-2003, 01:33 AM

No_Counts

Well I guess I am a No_Count forcer also. No one showed me how to do it, just the way that I taught myself to fly. Never did I ask anyone to help me or did anyone offer to help when I started playing . I will not say that it is right wrong or what ever anyone else wants to call it. You no why the biggest reason it is a game and I just take it for the way it is. I play the game for the fun of it. You no I get as many no counts as everyone else but I never complain about NCs, LAG, or CIs why? It is a game take it for that........ You know I do get a lot of counts too. Reason being change the way you fly. I shoot more passive, I use cannons... I do different things all the time to stop the NCs why don't everyone else do the same. You do not need patches you need to change the way you fly. I am not against the patch or what ever you want to call it, maybe it is needed for pilots that don't want to change the way they fly or look for new ways to get the count .instead you want to change the way that I fly. that is fine to, a new challenge.
Specking of challenges I have the most fun when I am flying in a server with a bunch of no counters. I will wait on my ole buddy Reaper to make a mistake and WOW I get the count, and we all make mistakes. Reaper is a good pilot and an asset to C4. Thanks for all you have done for the game.
I have been accused of cheating in open servers and there are people that post here that have seen the CRAP I go through to play this game. I do not cheat I do not mess with packets or what ever they are don't even have a clue what they are ........ There have been pilots that tell pilots i am cheating them out of there score I always make myself available to be killed. I have strafed out 28 stingers from pilots when they are out and I am going in for the kill, they suicide that is fine too IT IS JUST A GAME................................LETS KEEP IT THAT.......................

OhNo

**GarretJax** · 12-04-2003, 12:51 PM

Hey OHNO i have to agree with you on this being a game..it is! and a good one! and Reaper I am not sure I know anybody who has done more for the game than yourself.......as you've stated no counts are part of the game in its natural state and to teach players to help get kills because of this little scoring glitch is great, but some i think have used this to exploit the glitch to get less deaths(therefore thinking they are better pilots) which to me seems to be going in the wrong direction.........So as this thread was intended to discuss "Forcing no counts" is it a cheat!.....Its the same as suicide farping......done specifically and intentionally to give a pilot who is about to be killed "A way out".........

**~ÅÞ§~Gen³_TerrorX** · 12-04-2003, 01:23 PM

I have been flying for awhile now. I have seen pilot fly through hills, upside down, fly in the water. All do to lag. Inso is right about the way you fire. Just as pilots no how to force no counts, some of us have learn how to stop them. If you watch how many stngers you fire, and alternate cannons and stingers then you stand a better chance of stopping the NC. Some pilots think they kill me because they don't see me after they die, I farp after e very battle weather I have 2 stinger or 20. Staying low (2 - 5 feet) and fast in open terrarin if someone is firing broadside at you will cause an NC. using the terrarin and firing as I said above. will stop an NC, and splash can cause one on you. Our squad uses the terrain and cover to its fullest, in doing so the explosions on the terrarin object causes splash damage, or not. I would much rather you shoot a hill in front of me then shoot me. This mostly is taught in the tutorial except with a few minor detail. the stinger cannon part. I fire four stinger at a time mostly, because if there is someone on Dialup or DSL one maybe all the stingers are gonna hit the terrarin. This is only an observation on the DSL & Dial-up.

TerrorX

**Raphael** · 12-04-2003, 05:59 PM

This post is in response to Inso’s message above.
First I would just like to say that I support you 100% Inso with what you have done to try and make this game fair. I think I speak on behalf of most pilots if not all pilots. But I disagree with your last post.
Inso you said “The sole responsibility of a no count kill truthfully resides in the fact that in v15 splash damage is treated the same as a pilot running into a tree or the ground. Period without any question in my mind.”
I have played this game close to 2 years now. I have seen it all! If “no counts” are only due to splash damages, then explain all of this.
· I am in server “x” with 5 of my closest flying friends. We play roughly 8 games at 20 minutes a game. We experience a “no count” 40-45% of the time we kill each other. Then another and better server opens up for us. We all go in there. We all fly the same way we always have. Then we experience “no counts” roughly 5-10% of the time. It is a drastic difference!!!
· I like to open up server and test different things out with some of my closest flying buddies. We have discovered that “no counts” can actually occur when someone is just hovering and a single stinger shot is fired at them with seconds between each one. I am not saying we see “no counts” often this way, but I have definitely seen them.
· I get into a cannons battle with other enemy pilot. We both only have cannons, and no stingers! One of us gets a no count! I have experienced this many times. I have delivered the no count and received the no count during cannon battle many times.
I just wanted to list a few obvious examples of why a “no count” is not created by splash damage only. I know many pilots agree with him and are questioning what you said. I am sure you are very knowledgeable with computers and writing code and how games work, which I am not. But I do think very logically about everything, and I just have to say I disagree with what you said, for obvious reasons that I mentioned above.
I do agree with what Bluetiereign said about no counts on the previous page. No counts are obviously caused by many factors, not just splash damage.
Inso you are a VERY good man, and I thank you for everything you have done and continue to do to help this game out.
--- Raphael

**Ham617** · 12-04-2003, 06:18 PM

Hello everyone,

Imagine if someone posted this and it was true.

I've learned of a new tactic that works pretty good but haven't tried it out yet.
It's actually a bug in the game but as long as no code is used to alter the game it's not a cheat.
There's a take off method right after being shot down that makes you invisible. It's a bug we've all experienced and usually Crash when someone tells you about it. But using the NC viewpoint,if you don't crash and just play along it's not a cheat. Just keep farping and shooting.
This will give those who use it an advantage until squads who would usually pursue this type of thing and not call it a cheat to figure it out and start using it.

Would the NC crowd here agree with this or is something wrong with the thinking as it is with NC's and other "exploited bugs"?

I'll continue next post.

Happy flying
Ham

**Ham617** · 12-04-2003, 06:20 PM

Hello again all,

Another way to approach it is to start by simply state what a no count is. A no count is the score not updating after you've been blown up!!!!. It has no bearing what your intention was when you blew up!!! IF you hit a mountain running or dodging someone then they killed you and should get credit. If they shot you fair and square you should get credit. How can anyone disagree with that??
The matter at hand isn't whether or not anyone is modifying the ability to get kills, but modifying score keeping!!!!
Imagine if a football team was able to trick the score keeper into not counting scores for their opponent. Would that be cheating or not? I think most would agree it would be. This is exactly the same.
Just a thought.

Ham

**N_E** · 12-04-2003, 06:47 PM

Ham's thoughts explain it just the way I see it.

But the sadness of this discussion is that we cant do anything to fix no counts.

I dont care if someone calls me a winner! If noone would complain (winn), then nobody would care. And it doesnt help if only one person complains. Everyone who think this is not right should complain. I know Nova didnt care so far. But as long they havent droped the lobby, I still have a little bit of hope that they might do care.

**Reaper** · 12-04-2003, 07:07 PM

As to rather splash damage causes no counts or not. I will still say there are few NCs in version 2 it scores slash damage as a point. Plain and simple. Say it's a glitch or any thing you want to . That's why I want AE for version 2.
There is some thing else players should know I run a map called killing spree. It's a death match map with all the spawn points set close together. Life expectancy on that map is 5 to 10 seconds, with 4 players logged in. That game is nothing but spawn and shoot. There must be more info flood the server in that game then any other i run. Well no counts happen seldom on that map. You know why ? becuase players don't have time to straf. As they come up they get killed. Players hate it. It gives the highest death ratio count on any map I ever played. As for training players to learn to watch for the shot that scores points and teach them to attack from an elivated postion out of a hard straf with there nose up I don't consider that going back wards. Thats what I train. Thats what no count forcing is. Players will explote any thing they can thats how hard it is to score points now. This still goes to tactics. Players are not the same skill we had a year ago. It has nothing to do with glitches. You have players that have played twice as many hours as they did at a year ago. The more you play the better every one gets. The scoring is flawed, Don't blame players for finding out how the scoring works and setting there play to it. This isn't a terrain glitch like the tunnels get where the player disapears. or a setting comming from co op that you can't make in dm or tdm. It is the scoring. I don't expect you to like it I don't either. But lets find a way to play that works. I stated already I am trying a micro to cycle weapons to work from that side of the problem. If the players that are that up set over this would start testing there theorys and try some diff tactics mabe we can learn some more information. How we fix this is with all of us players seeing what works and what doesn't. And sharing that info with the players you face. Right now i see 1 fix and that is version 2. theres no ae for it , Inso has already been working on it. There can be some cool stuff come out of this, I want to play at 1H, I may get my chance now. A lobby where you see if AE is on before you log in is being looked at. I spent many hours working on the attack I use that gave me more kills. I still get no counts !. There are some smart players in c4. If you want to fix this work on how to stop it.

**Ham617** · 12-04-2003, 07:32 PM

If version 2 counts everything I just might start playing again

In the real military world if a member of either side dies because he crashed, was hit by "splash" damage, or even pissed on an electrical socket he would be DEAD. and that counts as one for the other side, dont matter how. Of course friendly fire would count too, which should. If someone knows how to get version 2 let me know. I'll go out and buy it if that's what is shipping now. Then this topic will go away if I have to sit each match out to serve.