Forcing No Counts On Purpose Is A Cheat!!!

Ok, so we have finally come to page 7 - the real issue: How to play games on the internet. This issue extends beyond C4, so if you want to be pessimistic, the anwswer is to only play with people you know and always in a closed server. This can become boring, however, since many find enjoyment in making new friends. The problem is inherent in the technology. Instead of having a rigidly defined playing field ( ie. monopoly board) you have an amiguous and malleable field which can be stretched in numerous directions, ethical or not, self mutating, and with parameters that extend beyond the context of the game itself (connection speed, hardware) all the way to the hackable issues (cabling, mutilated/dropped packets, game hacks). The difference between vendors even affects the game = for those of you who play bf1942, look how often ea tries to uptdate the game to prevent hacks (and still fails). The difference is that a game like bf has enough players that it now has leagues, and since the game servers can log well, the leagues have evolved into authorities that kick out members who cheat - a great thing mind you, it works ! Unfortunately, and as you can see from the pessimism so evident (unfortunately) in inso and blue's posts, a lot of the vet players have given up on the game (which bums me out, but which I understand).

So where is this diatribe going ? nowhere. exactly the same place C4 is going unless it gets some help.

which direction should it go ? that is the real issue. These are the multiple directions it is going now:

A) purist. fire one missle at a time, no repeat macros. forget it, play it on lan server or with friends. aint gonna happen on net.

B) wanna be hacker. " gee, I found this program that can lag our opponents server so we can win" - this type of person does play c4, they cause grief for everyone. doom to the game.

C) "I just wanna win" cabler, any macro goes. if I can hide my copter in a wall of a building I will. doom to the game

. . . ad infinitum.


the bottom of the line is that the vendor of the game has to support it. by supporting it, they provide regular updates that help the game stay sane and avoid most (never all) of the above. If nova has truly decided to drop support completely for C4, then it is over. There are not enough guys like inso around to save it.

Don't blame the people who stretch the game a little, its a natural evolution of computer games.
Don't blame the people who want the game to stay as it was originally, these type of people are in every game.

The people who kill a game are those that think that they are so important that they can publicly lambast others for their opinions, thinking they are important individuals because of their status in a computer game . HAHA. ITS SO PATHETIC. These are the fun killers. If the game continued to be fun, would all the players be dropping like flies. Would all these vets be so pessimistic ? Nope, its the fun killers who kill a game. The holier than thous, the Admiral this and general that, and those who feel the need to pose cursing on others' web sites. The people whose opinions are always the (only) right ones. You know who you are, so pat yourselves on the back.

(Insert violin sounds here)
Hopefully when the last c4 server closes for the final game, I will meet some of you (who I have had much fun with) in other games, and we will play again, and have fun again.
And I will have fun, because otherwise, I won't be playing.

Until then,
its been a lot of fun,
kill ya later

Wiper

(oh, and merry xmas too to everyone if I don't happen to see you between now and then (not being sarcastic)):ar15:

I am going to end my part of the posting with this last 1. When I posted to have INSO put a new AE out for C4, I beleived it would help solve the no count problem. I was wrong. Inso and I talked about what would happen and he was right. There is more wrong here than players glitching or cheating or what you think is fair. First to blue, You don't have to tell who you are I have seen you help players here at delta for years. The down loads is full of your maps. I don't care if You use another name and don't play open servers you contibution to C4 speaks for it's self. For all the rest of you. This isn't just a game. We spend money to up grade our pcs, we get broad band and some of us play every day. That is why this is so heated. At this point in time I don't care if Inso makes ae or not. I don't run it on version 1.5 when I play for fun unless some askes me to. And I have just about had my fill of C4 , squads and fighting. The game has lost it's fun for me. I need to deside if I should be still playing now any way and by the look of these posts I am not the only 1. So I am going to leave you all with a question ?. Some one was willing to do some programing to help give you a game with few no count's. Forcers, If you force to get kills why would you not want to play a version where you don't need to do it any more. You get them too?. The players that hate no counts so bad, Why wouldn't you stand up and back AE for version 2 above all else?. Un till you all can answer those questions it wont matter if INSO finishes AE for version 2 or not. Now to you INSO I am sorry I asked you for this. I remember what you said when You left c4 and why you did. I all most didn't. If the players in C4 want Ae for version 2 now it's your turn to show if it will be of any value or not. I have come to beleive it wont. I can play version 2 with out Ae with players that I trust any way. There will be few new players come in to c4 now to give us new players to play with. And what we have here now is only going to drop off alittle more each week. :flames:

7 pages and approximately 1500 reads --And two excellent posts.

Yeppers.. a 'purist' I am... and thus at disagreement (and a standstill) with more than a few - up to and including the use of (or teaching ) - the forcing of a no count and macros use.

However, I cannot disagree with the solid and well put thinking I just read. A salute to the both of you.

I also want to thank Inso for his great work. And yes, I would like to see V2 a/e.

This is also my last post in this tread. I just still want to say I have never used macros or programming when I play C4. I play it with my keyboard and mouse.

A player was bigmouthing that he allready found 3 ways on v2 server to accuse no counts. That's what gave me the rest and why I started this treat. Of curse on v2 servers without a/e. If a/e for v2 does not work to keep it a fungame for me, then I'll do just like Wiper said. I'll go and find me a other game where I can have fun.

N_E

This is the last post in this thread for me too. Unfortunately what I saw last night was alittle disheartening. INSO put up a server with 2.0 and A/E. It was full for awhile until the NC crowd got tired of an even game and migrated to a 1.5 server. Sorry to see that, but I think it's not time to give up. If we can convince a few squads to migrate to 2.0, Especially LRS with the ever popular reloaded server, and not announce that it's 2.0, people might slowly migrate.
It's been an interestign thread, I usually dont get involved in forums, but suddenly I'm in 4 threads here LOL. Thanks whomever maintains it.
HAM

Wow ... I just spent an hour reading all of this, glad to see you you have all worked it out ... LMFAO

I still visit this site on a regular basis, its so nice to see that some things will never change.
ITS A GAME, IF YOUR NOT HAVING FUN PLAYING IT ... FIND A DIFFERENT ONE
Plain and simple

A quick hello to some of my old buds.. Inso, Blue, Reaper, and of course Wiper ... hope your all doing well.
Sorry , dont really know you newer guys, GOOD LUCK to all of you. I still love C4, but to much BS, as usual.

Well this is my last post on this matter.It is very sad that it could not be debated. There have been a lot of things said and they where taken the wrong way like teaching meaning helping a new pilot learn how to fly and there are a lot out there now that are try to help. I am one of them.Sadly no one did that for me it was like learn the best you can.
INSO's server yes I was there and did leave no fault of my own I had a computer problem. I went there in support of the V20 AE the first thing that was said when I entered the server was OH THE NC KING why would that make me want to stay I did take a screen shot of that if anyone would like to see it. INSO that will not stop me I will fly in your server anytime you have it up thanks for trying to help. I truly beleive it is needed for those that want it.
The things that have happened in the last few days are very sad,there is no more GET RANKED which was the best server I ever flew in. There was very little problems in this server Reaper kept things in check,and I beleive most had a lot of fun and it was a good place to help new pilots because of the size of the server.Hope you reconsider Reaper I for one will truly miss the one place it was fun again.
INSO please continue with the AE for V20
it may help some of the problems. THE BOTTOM LINE IS WE SHOULD ALL HAVE A CHOICE.......................

OhNo

Howdy All,
Mad here.... When i first got this game I was clueless as to what version I bought. I played all 31 missions (K/B & mouse) then got online (dial-up). I pretty much got me arse whooped on a daily basis. No one told me bout the 8H thing, the rotor vol. thing... nuttin. I'm still here. If everyone is so hard up for V2 please send it to me. Inso make A/E for it. I will be more then happy to host it. I am also sure that the drama will not end. Somewhere along the line someone will start a controversy and the beechin will start. Anymore I simply get the satisfaction of watchin me victims fall and burn (still with K/B & mouse). I also would like to leave you good people wit me favorite C4 sayin.... Anyone wanna touch me Hiney =) ....Peace

i really think that this issue has blown over the top. especially the son forum (www.sonsquad.com) . i think that ppl really need to get a hold of themselves
(myself included) before blowing their mouth off. certain pilots also need to get a life.
i said everthing i want to on the son forum, and i dont care wat ppl think of me.
rem
p.s. i like these smilies...lol...:butt: , :ar15: .

Hi@all!
This is SierraMike, leader of the =EFA= European Fighter Alliance.I feel sad about what things i must read here. Do some people forget, that C4 should make fun and we all want fun and no cheating? I will say it: =EFA= will never agree to the force NCs "tactic". Its NO part of the game!!!Its poor and bad and only could come from people who have normaly no chance to win.
=EFA= will ever play fair, with the normal possiblities and only with them.
If a EFA-member use "Force-NCs" he will have to leave my sqaud 10 sec. after the message reach my ear!
I will support every sqaud that is against that cheat stuff too!
We had a battle vs. ***: ******* laugh about us, cause he use this cheat, so i had to abort the battle. Bad for all others, cause we expect more from a sqaud like ***.

So thats my position!

SierraMike=EFA=

Edited to Include: I appreciate your input. I have personally flown against you, as late as last night. Let us debate issues, not accuse individual players and entire squads. Thanks Mike. :)



[Edited on 12-7-2003 by Bluetiereign]

ANIMAL APS

Well I hate to say it but most of you guys don't like the No Count. It is also your opinion about what you like. I happen to like to fly version 1 because it seems to be harder to kill people that force and it is a challenge to me to beat the person that can force it. It is just a game and many want to call it a cheat…… and yes people use it but it is second nature to most people that fly vesion1. Yes I have played version 2 and my favorite person to go up against in version 2 is Pitfighter. He makes it fun even though he hides…. everyone has there way to fly. I like to fly with everyone because there is always someone better than yourself. That makes the game fun to try and beat a person that forces. Some people don't like to try to beat it. They think it is hard work to try and kill a pilot that can force every time you go up against them and I do use the No count move a lot… but I don’t consider myself a cheat because I force. When I do the maneuver I’m always available to kill. I do hide most of the time, which makes it hard for people to kill me, but I’ve learned the move to hide from my buddy Pitfighter. Again, everyone has there way to fly and the only way that I can get better is to combine all the styles of flying, which in turn makes it harder to kill me. I have tried to help many pilots out in c4, but most of them won’t listen to me so they will just have to learn by themselves. I'm always willing to help any pilot out. I also get called a cheat and people say that I know how to manipulate packets. I would not have a clue what that is or how to do it for that matter.
All I do is try to have fun and people make it a big deal that a person forces no counts, Yeah I get tired of them when I can not get a count on a person but I don't type it and say stuff about other pilots when I get angry about it. I just try harder the next time when I go up against them. It's no big deal… I live with it. I'm just tired of everyone saying someone is cheating and all the other kind of BS that is going to happen in any game you play. I just wish we could get along in a game but it will never happen. I try to make friends but I come up with more enemies every time I play.
I just want to have fun and make friends. I’ll keep trying…

I have been playing this game since it came out and it seems like no matter if anything on this game ever gets fixed everyone still complains and it is just a game. Some people force no counts but I just think of it as a challenge to kill them. This game use to have two pages of servers with people in everyone, now it is hard to find 5 people in a server at a time.

come on guys ................. more comments DON'T STOP NOW THERE HAS TO BE MORE :boxing_smiley.gif: :argue.gif:

[Edited on 12/7/2003 by crazyzac]

to join the crowd in making a last post to this thread (sorry Zac lol)....we have seen both extremes on this topic.....some maybe a bit too extreme (calling people cheaters i believe is way to extreme) but being new to these types of forums myself it was actually great to see both sides of the coin as one would say....... to me it only shows the dedication all of us have for the game....Being sort of a purist as some would put it I was never an advocate of Forcing NC's which is why I stated my opinion on this thread as such but after reading some of these posts pilots such as Reaper, OHNO,Slapshot and Animal have shown me there side and there dedication and hard work as "pilots" in adapting to unstable conditions in the game......how this could be seen as anything else but good for the community is beyond me........so hats off to all who have posted here no matter what you opinion!....... :dance: