View Full Version : Forcing No Counts On Purpose Is A Cheat!!!
Hi!
I know some will get upset, but I believe forcing no counts and teach other pilots how to force no counts is not right. U use a glitch of the game to be bether then other pilots.
Shure I accuse no counts too. Everybody does once a while. But there are pilots who are proud that they have found out about 10 different ways to force no counts and they also teach other pilots to use such kind of "tactic".
Its just like I would use the "invisible-glitch" to be bether than I really am.
Everybody who forces no counts on purpose is not playing fair. U will fasten the demise on C4!!!
There are still new pilots joining the game. They wont stay long if they dont get counts for their kills.
Matches will end 5:4 or 6:8 instead of 35:32.
N_E
~ÅŽ§~Gen³_TerrorX
12-02-2003, 05:37 AM
Your whining is the demise of C4. Waaaa!!!! To all Pilots that think No Counts are a cheats Isuggest you go back to the Tutorial of the game and go thru all the practices. They teach you all you need to know about the game. By lowering your radar cross section you can force No Counts. I force No Counts. All SON Pilots Chicken Farp whats worse facing the stingers headon or running headon into a hill on purpose. APS don't fly 8h we don't hill farp, what we do is face the stingers head on and force them to miss us. I would much rather duck behind a hill while you shoot the hill then shot you, then be so scared to get a point against me that I have to run into a hill to avoid stingers. This is a game, that is it. What you call a cheat I call Skill, I am not writing any code, or altering the maps to get rid or add to the fog. I fly, I practiced hard to do this. The demise of C4 came from the in squabbling between the older squads. NovaWorld says they are shutting down the pointers in January, because of this petty bickering, congratulation, you just gave them one more reason. Oh Wah I can kill anyone,,, Wahhh,,,, Practice like I did and you can get better... SON doesn't help New pilots,,, APS members get points towards thier promotion for helping new pilots, if you see any APS pilots acting like buttheads towards new pilots then email me the screen shots of the incident and I will kick them out. Thsi is not an issue the real issues are cabling, squads harrassing each others, the pilots that seem to forget this is a game otherwise known as unsportsman like behavior. One thing this game has taught me is eight grow or go, I decided to grow... At one time I was with one of those abusive squads I am no longer. APS is the best humored bunch of people, I have ever had the priviledge fly with... We have these 2 15 year olds that are great to be around, I haven't laughed so much since I got this game. We aren't even laughing about the game. just life stuff. Since being in APS I have helped a lot of pilots learn to fly better. If this is what you mean the demise of C4 is then goodbye. I think not,,, SON go back to smoking your bongs and leave the hard work of flying to the rest of us.... If we are in the same server together,,, and I see you first I promiss to loan you some super glue to fix your Chopper after shooting it out from under you. Have a wonderfully perfect & terrorific day....
I'm Outy,,,
~ÅŽ§~Gen³_TerrorX
Commanding Officer
Battlefield Wing
Executive Officer to
~ÅŽ§~Warlord_Hooper
Åģr Žrõwlėr §¶üäŠrõń
terrorx@airprowlers.com
http://www.airprowlers.com
[Edited on 12-2-2003 by ~ÅŽ§~Gen³_TerrorX]
Did I say anything about APS is not helping newbees or that APS is a crap squad? Did I say I speek for SON? Do u see a tag added to my name?
Its my personal opinion that forcing no counts on purpose is a way of cheating. If u think its not, ok - thats ur opinion. But dont call anybody else or squad what u sayed above. I never know of any SON pilot that didnt help when they where asked to!!!
Back to forcing no counts:
I think u give ur self a big advantage by forcing no counts. We had this before by other ways too. First there were the 8h'ers, then the efam bug, the guys who cable..... Its all the same to me. U use a bog or a trick to be bether.
By the way - I dont know of any other game where u dont get a point for the kill u made.
If u think I steped on ur feet with this, well - ur problem. But please dont act nasty and inflict other pilots, squads ......
Like I sayed, its my personal opinion. I do not represent SON.
c ya
N_E
P.S: I rather have a nice day without any terror!!!
WiperSix«L·R·S»
12-02-2003, 10:34 AM
It is unfortunate that nova won't fix or support the game. I get a lot of nc's against me, but I am doing nothing but avoiding the stingers- nova's own directions are to strafe and keep nose pointed toward the missles. if you do that, you end up circling around the missles and climbing; the result is splash damage. All they would have to do to fix the counting is change the counting method to a very simple formula: kills - deaths. Even if the other player didnt get the kill, your deaths would show, lowering your score. Why this method was never used for scoring I will never know. I can only assume that someone thinks that low scores wouldn't be fun enough. Once Inso gets the v2 aefix done, it will be interesting to see if it is a better solution.
Yes, bickering is a detraction. The main problem is small minds with big egos though, and that is the biggest detractor of any games. Some people just can't grow up (as you can see from the previous post, and the tone of it). However, this exists in all the games, and all the ages, and, unfortunately is a microcosm of the world at large. One workable solution is to ally and group yourselves with those that think in a similar fashion (as we, and others have, and will continue to try). There will never be a panacea for this.
Sayuton
12-02-2003, 01:06 PM
This is a game, that is it. What you call a cheat I call Skill...
:LolLolLolLol: Outright BS. Macros firing and packet loss.
I am not writing any code...
:lol: Obviously...
....and leave the hard work of flying to the rest of us....
:rofl: Ok, you 'work' at that flying... while others 'play' with finding solutions..
~ÅŽ§~Gen³_TerrorX
12-02-2003, 04:29 PM
NovaWorld is shutting down the pointers for us to play in the central server at the beginning of the year. We still have Kali. Because of this C4 numbers will dewindle to a few pilots playing. Enjoy the game while it is here. Forget the rest of the BS. We have maybe a little over a month, if NovaWorld keeps their word(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/TheMadRocker/Smileys/blabla.gif) I appologize for being so angry sounding in my earlier post. However I do stick by the point being made. This is a game, let enjoy it while we got it. Stop all this bickering, & fly. I saw some made cooments about words I said, if that is the best you can do then, HA HA HA the joke is on you. I hope to see you all in those bloody skies of C4, in these last few days left of NovaWorld Hosted C4. If I don't see ya there was great playing with ya. Have a Great Life.
Hasta,,,
~ÅŽ§~Gen³_TerrorX
Commanding Officer
Battlefield Wing
Executive Officer to
~ÅŽ§~Warlord_Hooper
Åģr Žrõwlėr §¶üäŠrõń
terrorx@airprowlers.com
http://www.airprowlers.com
Inso «Š*§*§»
12-02-2003, 04:37 PM
:stupid2:
Reaper
12-02-2003, 06:05 PM
LOL Inso you still want to help us.:1drink.gif:
WiperSix«L·R·S»
12-02-2003, 07:00 PM
I can't figure out what that smiley face is eating. maybe I don't want to know LOL
Str8_up
12-02-2003, 07:31 PM
I can't believe this!!!
I have never been so enticed to join a forum than now!!!
Everyone in C4 knows who I am....I hide behind nothing including what you all call "cheats" in the game.
I have always had a GREAT attitude and respect towards all other pilots EXCEPT those who choose to attack my squad, me or my daughter personally even when I was KILLED ridiculously by the better pilots.
Obviously...this post CAN'T go out to EVERYONE....there are those even in the ranks of other squads that appreciate me and what I have to say....and respect me as well as my ability to stay neutral even in the worst of circumstances.
Now...I can't sit still...especially after reading what you posted N/E.
When I got to C4....everyone killed my butt!!!...including you.. I couldn't even get a count if I tried!!!
Finally...some people saw a possible pilot in me. Several squads asked me to join....
I went with the squad who told me..."If I want to be one of the best pilots without cheating....If I want to work hard and find out what it takes to "play" the game in its totality.....and be a winner....then Join APS.
That's exactly what I wanted....and I got it.
There is NO CHEATING on OUR end.. You can take me for my word.... or kiss off.
I find it revolting to hear pilots say we cheat...and although NO one has directly said this to me.... It sounds as if now it is coming to that If you are calling what I do and the rest of my squad including my daughter cheating.
I say you should read the manual.... that would help greatly.
As a matter of fact....throwing an NC is not as easy as it looks...requires NO computer manipulation...takes hours of practice and comes as a direct result of how NOVA wrote the software...Did it ever occur to you that NOVA meant for this to happen in the new version?
Let me suggest that possibly NOVA Teams wrote this in on purpose to make it more “realistic”. Do you think that real pilots Don’t become better and learn to avoid things like heat seeking missiles… you bet your behind they do!
HEY....if you don't want to drop your EFAMS....I say don't... But your Radar signature is going to be larger.
If you don't want to put your gear up...That's a personal problem...which will undoubtedly end in your demise...Again...because you don't want to follow the rules....the "SOFTWARE" and the people who wrote it have nothing to do with you dieing at this point...and frankly….. NEITHER DO WE!!
Do the right thing....If you want to play the game and be a happy person…..Learn and ...ADJUST TO HOW OTHER PILOTS FLY...
That will MAKE you a better pilot!! I guarantee it!! Crying about other pilots and how they fly will get you and me in No Wheres Ville.
In my very first match...against you guys...I lost my tail....you guys killed me right and left!! If I remember correctly...you guys whipped APS 3 times...before we won our first match just recently against you. So what’s up with that? You didn’t here me whining…as a matter of fact…No one did….IT DIDN”T HAPPEN!!
To take that one step further I was taken aside and reprimanded by my CO because I told one of SON”s pilots in our first match that there score was a great one and that it was deserved.
It just caused me to work harder at being a better pilot…AND I THANK YOU FOR THIS!!! Thank you officially!!
We finally become Excellent pilots...work hard when we practice and even when we are just in an open server... Kick peoples butts....usually resulting in taking the top spots...
So what? Now we are cheats?
COME ON!! BE REAL!!!
I seriously can't believe that....and I don't think that you do either.
I have flown against you from day one and you used to kick my booty... are you telling me now that your not...because I cheat... I won't settle for that...no way.
There are plenty of pilots other than on my squad, that know me...know my character and KNOW that I'm not a cheater. In Fact….Anyone who KNOWS me will Tell you exactly the opposite.
If you want...I would be more than willing to take you...or any other pilots into a server and "SHOW" you how I accomplish my NC's. There is NO CHEAT involved what so ever….There is no Packet or Pocket manipulation or anything of such.
We certainly have better things to do with our time….LIKE PLAY THE GAME AND BE BETTER PILOTS.
There are so many determining factors of why someone dies and whether or not there is a count. It could be a combination of lag, positioning, technique, connection speed, chopper color. Lol ( now that’s funny) and remember this is between how many computers? Heck...I don't know why there might be lag..do you?
I gladly help every griffon or other pilots when I can...and stop even during my "Fun Play" in open server to help....
Ask any pilot of CAS, DIE, APS, SAI, SON, or any other Respectable Squad. I'm on top of helping others and showing them how we get NC’s (NOTICE: SON NOTED AS RESPECTABLE (( I do believe this to be true)))
As for the glitch....well....Call it what you want.. It's part of the game....built in by the creators of the game...
If we take advantage of the NC maneuvers, It’s for no other reason than you take advantage of putting up your EFAMS. It’s part of how it was “Designed” to work and not created or manipulate by any pilots and certainly not us….I might add.
I think you’re an ok guy….I’m sure we can come to some form of resolution to this matter…. This is not just on you either. There are many people who feel the way you do…and I understand this. I would like to think though, that people would be willing to listen to reason.
Everyone in C4 should help other pilots…or else nobody will get to be a better pilot and only one squad would always win. Now…that would be fun right?
N/E….. I’m not mad at you….I’m mad at the fact that people have been misinformed about how the game works…which is ultimately causing this conflict.
The bickering between the squads will be the demise of all of us soon enough.
We need to join together….show NOVA that we CAN get along. Perhaps they would then change there minds about ousting us from their servers and shutting down C4.
Even after typing this…I don’t feel any better….This sucks to continually hear these remarks about cheating. And I thought this was supposed to be a fun game….lol
Further more…people should be ashamed of direct insults to others… Not only is it inappropriate in the servers…but there are young people (including my daughter) who don’t need to hear that or see that crap being typed. I say this to ALL C4 players and am a respecter of absolutely none who throw that nasty language and Stupid accusations around.
Those type of words accomplish nothing and result in no good all of the time.
I HOPE that some how some way this situation can change…..I’ve done everything I can in and out of the servers to keep things clean for everyone’s enjoyment and as a good sportsman can offer to all pilots of C4 only these things:
1) Challenge yourself to adapt to the game
2) Do your best and keep coming back
3) Ask for help when needed
4) Always be willing to help another pilot
5) Don’t throw BLOW around when you post…on a forum or in the game.
6) Read Reapers page on No Counts…found in the link below.
7) http://members.optusnet.com.au/die_squad/die1.htm
Later…Str8up~APS~
Reaper
12-02-2003, 07:35 PM
LOL wiper just watching what happens, I am staying out of this debate.
Ok, Str8_up!
First of all, thank u for all the info and for the nice way u posted it. Your Co can shure learn something from u. I didnt want to say that every pilot who accuses no counts is a cheater. I know, then we all are cheaters. I wanted to start a discussion about forcing no counts. To make it a bit more spicy I called it a cheat. This was a misstake and I apologize for that. I should rather have called it "not right". But if we never would have discussed about 8h'ers or suiciding, then probable there would still be a lot pilots using these "tactics". I know no counts are a part of the game. Thats why we cant just shut them off, of curse. They have allways been, but never been so much. Some pilots use it to give them a big advantage. Its not like dropping efams or closing baydors or get ur gear up.
If us say real pilots become better by using these maneuvers ur right but if they get shot down then they are dead. And the enemy who shot him down will notice it as a kill.
And right here is the point which bothers me. U dont get credit for the kill u make, just because some do some kind of maneuver. A kill is a kill and should be honoured with a point.
If u are a good pilot then use the tactics by reducing ur radar signature or try to strafe the stingers out. Or use a hill, trees .... as a shild, just like the LMB-guys do very good. This all does not bother me. But not getting credit for a kill is killing my fun. I it is not just killing my fun, I know there are many more.
If we dont talk about anything, how should somebody recognize of what is going on? I started this poll, so hopefully very much players respond. I am sorry that I have not choosen the right words.
Most pilots know me (I believe) and theres no one who can say that I accuse others of cheating. Never did.
Now if its true what Terror said and Nova is closing the C4-application, then forget about this poll. I know it seems that Nova does not care anymore about C4. But still theres a little bit of hope.
N_E
RED BARON
12-03-2003, 09:54 AM
LOL Terrorx after reading your posts on the SON Squad web site I just had to reply.
http://people.zeelandnet.nl/cvdzanden
Forums, Re: Get Serious & Wake Up
You sure bring out your true colors, your language ( not allowed on this web site ) and some of the ip address you referr to.
I wonder if you are the Squad Leader of the APS Squad. :mad:
[Edited on 12-3-2003 by RED BARON]
Inso «Š*§*§»
12-03-2003, 10:34 AM
And your raising kids! Am not laughing any more, truly sad dude, truly....sad...!!
WiperSix«L·R·S»
12-03-2003, 11:35 AM
Well, its finally time to say what I really think. (This is just a copy of what I posted on SON site)
Well, as you all have seen from the above postings, all the things that terror (heretofore to be called Error) has accused the LRS of being or doing were (formerly) true. Why ? Well, Error knows very well - because of members like himself. I believe we have finally rid ourselves of these types (although, with members coming and going in several games its a constant battle). The unfortunate part of this is that most of the squads, including APS, contain , as a majority, fine upstanding friendly and fun-to-play-with pilots. I thoroughly enjoy playing with virtually all the APS members (Error excepted), and I have told them this (in private). I thoroughly enjoy playing with SON, LMB, and virtually all the other squad pilots, and there are very few I have met that I would not call friends. My squadmates feel the same, and all that remains to be done in this game, and the others we play, is to simply ignore the simpletons like the one aforementioned.
Keep the Faith, my brothers
By the way, you are all invited to join us in
our LRS battlefield server anytime, should you
decide to start playing that game. We have not
given up on C4, but have been spending a lot of
time in battlefield (the Desert Combat Mod)
thanks, and I hope you don't mind
me putting in my 2 cents
WiperSix LRS
~ÅŽ§~Gen³_TerrorX
12-03-2003, 01:10 PM
We are all human beings, we make mistakes. I lost my kool after a SON pilot continued to harrass me on YIM. My bad and no I am not the CO of APS I am only the XO. I don't handle harrassment as well as I used to ever since I left LRS. Since leaving LRS I have been harrassed by them in all sorts of ways. We also all know that when one of the LRS pilots post they are being fed their post thru Spikeman. No matter how much they deny it. I said what I said it may have been out of line or not. I appologize.
Sincerely,
~ÅŽ§~Gen³_TerrorX
Commanding Officer
Battlefield Wing
Executive Officer to
~ÅŽ§~Warlord_Hooper
Åģr Žrõwlėr §¶üäŠrõń
terrorx@airprowlers.com
http://www.airprowlers.com
Inso «Š*§*§»
12-03-2003, 02:06 PM
The Link (https://www.novaworld.com/NWCommunities/topic.aspx?topic_ID=60080029)
edited to include:
Yea sorry guess it woulda helped if I had specified to which rumor I was refering lol :ar15:---bad inso----:stupid2:
[Edited on 12-3-2003 by Inso «Š*§*§»]
Bluetiereign
12-03-2003, 02:49 PM
This is the rumor to which Inso refers.
NovaWorld is shutting down the pointers for us to play in the central server at the beginning of the year. We still have Kali. Because of this C4 numbers will dewindle to a few pilots playing. Enjoy the game while it is here. Forget the rest of the BS. We have maybe a little over a month
As an Admin of CPD: If you do not have solid information, please to not post as if it is.
Secondly, TerrorX.
Now, as a person who plays C4 and 'does a little coding' - and not an 'Admin'....I have been around awhile and watched people come and go. I have seen people get 'hotheaded' over issues (me included). I have seen the steady pleas for scoring resolution from people like Viper. I have seen the faithfulness to the C4 community of ' The Sleepless One'... even in his apparent absence. I have watched the players over the years (thats right, years)... like jj43, unoyt, reaper, rantanplantan, straycat and wiper... just to name a few.
All of this to say... everytime I run into a 'dealing' with you... there is trouble. You are either posting your bans for things like 'cowardice under fire...' , chewing somebody for something... or apologizing for having done so. As a longstanding member of the C4 community - (not an outstanding one or an admin of a website) - I am asking you now -right here- to please... please... do the 'oldtimers' a favor and back off, sit down and be quiet ...jeez. Open discussion and debate on a subject in a forum is one thing - an outright fight at every turn is another.
I would go on to prove much of what you say is nonsense, but no amount of proof will convince you otherwise. Maybe another will take the time and effort to do so.
RED BARON
12-03-2003, 03:13 PM
Hey GEN terror
AS long as you are in the appologizing mood, Heres a quote from your post on SON
But between SON, LRS, DSS, SAI and LAW you guys have screwed this game up for us all.
* ***** *** *** ****** *** **** ** *****> Have a nice day!!!!
__________________________________________________ ________________
Edited and included:
:nono.gif: Let's keep this thread unlocked and discuss no -counts.
[Edited on 12-3-2003 by Bluetiereign]
unoyt
12-03-2003, 03:49 PM
Touché!! :nod:
Str8_up
12-03-2003, 04:28 PM
ENUF....I"ll take care of it..any concerns....
I am the APS Peace Officer and Lt Gen.
please repy to me personally from this point to keep this from going any further and getting any larger.
Your assistance would be greatly appreciated in this matter....and I'm sure we will come to a resolution in concern to all these matters.. Regards, Str8up
WiperSix«L·R·S»
12-03-2003, 04:31 PM
ok, I have completed a small study. I took error's posts, converted them to PST (his time), and sorted them using 24 hr time format. here is the results:
01:37 Your whining is the demise of C4. Waaaa!!!! All SON Pilots Chicken Farp
03:29 I suggest you and I go into a version 2 server so I can whoop your ass in there to shut ya'll up...Once you pull your head out of your ass, ...If I see you in C4 first I'll loan you some super glue to put your helo back together. After I shoot your a*s off.
09:33 I appologize for how I have been acting the past couple days
12:29 I appologize for being so angry sounding in my earlier post.
21:10 I appologize.
21:22 F*ck you and your b*tch A*s bunch of potheads
23:51 This is a F*cking game go back to the sandbox
Now, the data has a large statistical error because of the small sample size, but it apprears (so far) that the following results can be inferred:
:nono.gif: (Edited)
Just a thought. lol
wiper:stupid2:
Edited and included:
__________________________________________________ ________________
The squad Peace Officer and Lt Gen. has asked that issues with this squad member be discussed with him from this point. Let's talk no - counts please..
[Edited on 12-3-2003 by Bluetiereign]
Str8_up
12-03-2003, 04:55 PM
Thanks Wiper....But this really isn't helping us to resolve this.
If you are interested in "Resolving" this matter....As you say you want it finished... Do as I said....Contact me..
Thanks again...and your 2 cents is appreciated, Str8up
WiperSix«L·R·S»
12-03-2003, 05:36 PM
sorry str8, posted before your last post. You won't hear any more from me on this.
Just know this: based on history, he will be back at in in 3 or 4 weeks because (pick one):
A) he needs the attention
B) he got his period
C) the planets aligned
D) full moon
E) (whatever . . .)
ok, now I'm done hehe no more posts from me. I'll be my quiet happy self again.
Wiper:ar15:
Bluetiereign
12-03-2003, 06:42 PM
I've heard from the most knowledgeable source I can find concerning C4 that No Counts are most likely a combination of the following:
1. Rapid fire/flare Macros...and the severe strain on the server of the flood of the info .
2. The 'splash damage' calling for a death - but the vast amount of stingers at one time plowing into a flare or flares - not giving the count to the player causing the death.
3. Packet loss (online data loss) due to all of this info occuring at a much more rapid pace than was originally intended.
4. This fast paced death with the lack of time for the movement of the chopper... (in other words - such rapid firing and death means no time for the player to make a 'bad' move - that could offer a count.
5. The failure (or glitch) of the programming to give credit to player causing the splash damage.
IMHO... you can call it skill... you can call it a 'cheat'... but the counts have gotten much, much.....MUCH worse since the mass introduction and general community acceptance of firing/flaring macros - and is a direct result of the above. Sadly, you will, in the end, have to admit to yourselves... your skills as pilots are actually in no way measured by your ability to force these 'no counts'. That what you are doing is exploiting a weakness aggravated and provided by rapid firing\flaring on the server...and the lack of C4's v.15 not giving the provider of splash damage credit.
That is only my opinion. But after quite a bit of playing - and having played in the 'age' when - you killed <=> it counted - I believe it to be true.
WiperSix«L·R·S»
12-03-2003, 07:09 PM
blue, I think some of that may be true. The thing is, I don't flare (except for the auto flares) at all. Other than repeating 2 at a time, I dont rapid fire. by the time I die , I'm out by 1 or 2 seconds anyway. Yet sometimes I get uncounted a lot. My thinking is that its simply a flaw in the program, especially since with the increased conn speeds more info really is getting to the servers. Of course, I really have nothing to justify that, just what I believe based on my own play.
wiper
Bluetiereign
12-03-2003, 07:31 PM
You may not be pumping those stingers\flares, but someone else on the server may...thereby flooding the server with too much info. Good conn or no... that flood of info has to be processed and then sent out.. The program itself has not changed - the number of no counts has...dramatically.
WiperSix«L·R·S»
12-03-2003, 07:41 PM
ok, let me give you an example. my squad was playing 2 on 2 a few weeks ago. nobody's ping was over 100. nobody was flaring. all 4 of us have cable or dsl. half of the game was no counts.
dont get me wrong, I'm not disputing what you say, and I agree 100% that it has gotten a little crazy. maybe some of us can get together and do some tests and see what can fix it ? I've heard that autoflaring can be turned off, but I don't know how.
anyway, food for thought
Wiper
Bluetiereign
12-03-2003, 07:47 PM
Are you saying that no one... and I mean no one... was using a rapid fire macros (not flares) ?
Also, you've brought to table.. the cable issue... NOT a reliably steady flow of data there...
WiperSix«L·R·S»
12-03-2003, 07:48 PM
well, I don't know about the rapid fire. but I am going to check into it.
Inso «Š*§*§»
12-03-2003, 09:15 PM
The sole responsibility of a no count kill truthfully resides in the fact that in v15 splash damage is treated the same as a pilot running into a tree or the ground. Period without any question in my mind. Add to that the fact that v15 did not count a suicide against a pilot it adds up to a true no count kill niether for nor against either pilot involved. It has become rampant for a few reasons The rate at which you fire does in fact create more no count kills, very simply put, if it takes 3 stingers to kill you and the person shooting at you fires one pauses for a half a second then fires again, pauses for a half second then fires again that small delay is enough time for any one of those stingers too time in between the flare release and actually hit the helo if the LAST portion of health was dropped by a stinger that hit and not splash damage the kill will count, if it was splash damage it wont. All that matters is that last hit period!!! Now look at it this way if you fire 6 stingers as fast as you can (macro or not dosnt matter I can empty 28 stingers in 2.7 seconds just pulling the trigger, and 1.1 seconds holding the enter key down) If that first stinger hits a flare, the two behind it will hit that same "cloud" if you will now imagine all six hitting the first two or three flasres out you have a splash kill 90% of the time. If you delay your stingers even slightly your kill count will rise to a peak and then taper off as you delay too long. So yes your fire rate does effect the number of no counts that YOU recieve in your kills. If you have any doubts about this put 2 pilots in a server together, using stingers have that second helo hover tail towards you while straffing left and right, test using different fire rates and watch the difference. The second half of that is the flares, the faster you release them the more likley your opponent is to hit them instead of you thus resulting in a no count kill. Lastly IMHO its rapant due the fact that as more became aware you could increase the number of no counts in your favor more used it, remeber back in march of 2001 when 8h didnt exsist to the masses, once a few dozen found out it was exploited like mad, the same has happened here.
So is it a cheat or isnt it? Well depends on who you are I guess. Too me it is exploiting a bug in the game with the intent on winning at any cost. That sounds like war not fun to me, if my life trulydepended on it bet your @zz Id be frirst in line to do whatever I could too stay alive, but in a game I dont feel that need for survival sorry! So if you call that fun go for it! If you dont, find someone else to fly against and stop flaming each other. Remeber we are all different ppl with different goals and different ideas of what is and is not fun, just because playerX dosnt see it your way dosnt mean he's a ( picj a word) nor are you for not agreeing with his.
If you must fly toghter then do so knowing full well on the way in what you have AGREED TO by the mere fact that you joined that server! Dont like the rules of the house, Host your own and have fun!!!
Inso out-----
GarretJax
12-03-2003, 09:31 PM
Hey Im in agreement with N_E as far as forcing no counts to "increase your score" per say.......I think when my little green life line goes out, my chopper blows up and then inturn I respawn.......something or someone has taken that "little green line" and taken it to '0'......tree.hill.mountain.biulding and such.........and if I blow up for any of the above then it should count (ie. GarretJax crashed) and should take a point away so inturn if I blow up battling with someone (splash damage or not) my little green line goes out and the opposing pilot is the cause........1 point for them........I can accept that..........maybe next time ill be a liitle quicker or maybe even out manuever him...there lies the challenge......better than basically "getting away with one"...Just my opinion!.....:bouncing:
WiperSix«L·R·S»
12-03-2003, 10:21 PM
clarify one thing please inso. The flaring. when the instance I was referring to happened (2 on 2 in fast server, low pings) noone was flaring except auto flares. can auto flare be turned off and solve this ?
(I mean, flying hard is half the fun. I personally don't see it as any different than ducking and hiding. In the real tests on the copter there were rumors from Texas that at certain attitudes the chopper can't be locked. so it makes sense that it is conceivable that it could possibly avoid stingers anyway.)
wiper
Reaper
12-03-2003, 11:56 PM
Now that this is going to be civil. I will add my 2 cents. First as a no count forcer I'll be the first one to admit the scoring sucks. Id like to see the game score a point for every time you blow a player up. Splash damage is a joke. As for forcing tho maybe the wording should be changed. The no count isn't what I really want when I start the motion that will most likely bring it. What I want is to get that last stinger to take health to 0, To do that I need to stay alive long enough to get the shot I need. When players are strafing that shot is very hard to get. Even players that don't force on purpose do it rather they know it or not. That motion you see where the player is moving in a straf with his nose up is what brings most of them. Or turning your nose in so the stingers slide past does also. It's the same 1 players use to starf out all 28 stingers. It is the same play more than half the players use. When I die most the time I still have stingers in my stores. The reason for that is I didn't have the time to shoot them all yet. The other player has unloaded every thing and killed me, And yes he did kill me. The training I give is not to stop other players from scoring there point. It is to help players score theres more often. The problem goes back to the scoring and how it reads how you died. It's to bad the game plays this way, The scoring in version 2 is just as bad it scores the splash damage. That's great but why does it say the other player killed you but yet you suicide. Again the scoring is flawed. I don't see a way to fix this. I can say I have been using a micro where my stingers and cannon rotate the idea being cannons cause fewer no counts. And yes it has helped, But it has also raised my heat sig so I cant force near as much. I can live with that All I want is the point on the kill.You deserve yours to no problem there. The last thing I would like to add is this The players that force also have a lot of no counts also. And as a player that forces I also want to see version 2 used more often. I even went out and got it months back. I don't see this as if it's a cheat or not I see it as how do we score in a game that has the scoring the way it is. Theres no secret, I show players any thing I think will help them score points. So if the players that have a problem with this can show a better way to score I bet every player would use it. Un till that time lets get AE for version 2 and give players what chose it will give them. That's not a shot at you INSO I have more respect for you than any 1 in c4. But I see no room here for players to agree on no counts I speak only for the way I use them and what I train players to do.
Inso «Š*§*§»
12-04-2003, 12:29 AM
My hat is off to you reaper!
The end here may never be that we all agree to do it this way or that way,
but at the very least we all need to respect each others opinions.
No_Counts
Well I guess I am a No_Count forcer also. No one showed me how to do it, just the way that I taught myself to fly. Never did I ask anyone to help me or did anyone offer to help when I started playing . I will not say that it is right wrong or what ever anyone else wants to call it. You no why the biggest reason it is a game and I just take it for the way it is. I play the game for the fun of it. You no I get as many no counts as everyone else but I never complain about NCs, LAG, or CIs why? It is a game take it for that........ You know I do get a lot of counts too. Reason being change the way you fly. I shoot more passive, I use cannons... I do different things all the time to stop the NCs why don't everyone else do the same. You do not need patches you need to change the way you fly. I am not against the patch or what ever you want to call it, maybe it is needed for pilots that don't want to change the way they fly or look for new ways to get the count .instead you want to change the way that I fly. that is fine to, a new challenge.
Specking of challenges I have the most fun when I am flying in a server with a bunch of no counters. I will wait on my ole buddy Reaper to make a mistake and WOW I get the count, and we all make mistakes. Reaper is a good pilot and an asset to C4. Thanks for all you have done for the game.
I have been accused of cheating in open servers and there are people that post here that have seen the CRAP I go through to play this game. I do not cheat I do not mess with packets or what ever they are don't even have a clue what they are ........ There have been pilots that tell pilots i am cheating them out of there score I always make myself available to be killed. I have strafed out 28 stingers from pilots when they are out and I am going in for the kill, they suicide that is fine too IT IS JUST A GAME................................LETS KEEP IT THAT.......................
OhNo
GarretJax
12-04-2003, 12:51 PM
Hey OHNO i have to agree with you on this being a game..it is! and a good one! and Reaper I am not sure I know anybody who has done more for the game than yourself.......as you've stated no counts are part of the game in its natural state and to teach players to help get kills because of this little scoring glitch is great, but some i think have used this to exploit the glitch to get less deaths(therefore thinking they are better pilots) which to me seems to be going in the wrong direction.........So as this thread was intended to discuss "Forcing no counts" is it a cheat!.....Its the same as suicide farping......done specifically and intentionally to give a pilot who is about to be killed "A way out".........
~ÅŽ§~Gen³_TerrorX
12-04-2003, 01:23 PM
I have been flying for awhile now. I have seen pilot fly through hills, upside down, fly in the water. All do to lag. Inso is right about the way you fire. Just as pilots no how to force no counts, some of us have learn how to stop them. If you watch how many stngers you fire, and alternate cannons and stingers then you stand a better chance of stopping the NC. Some pilots think they kill me because they don't see me after they die, I farp after e very battle weather I have 2 stinger or 20. Staying low (2 - 5 feet) and fast in open terrarin if someone is firing broadside at you will cause an NC. using the terrarin and firing as I said above. will stop an NC, and splash can cause one on you. Our squad uses the terrain and cover to its fullest, in doing so the explosions on the terrarin object causes splash damage, or not. I would much rather you shoot a hill in front of me then shoot me. This mostly is taught in the tutorial except with a few minor detail. the stinger cannon part. I fire four stinger at a time mostly, because if there is someone on Dialup or DSL one maybe all the stingers are gonna hit the terrarin. This is only an observation on the DSL & Dial-up.
TerrorX
Raphael
12-04-2003, 05:59 PM
This post is in response to Inso’s message above.
First I would just like to say that I support you 100% Inso with what you have done to try and make this game fair. I think I speak on behalf of most pilots if not all pilots. But I disagree with your last post.
Inso you said “The sole responsibility of a no count kill truthfully resides in the fact that in v15 splash damage is treated the same as a pilot running into a tree or the ground. Period without any question in my mind.”
I have played this game close to 2 years now. I have seen it all! If “no counts” are only due to splash damages, then explain all of this.
· I am in server “x” with 5 of my closest flying friends. We play roughly 8 games at 20 minutes a game. We experience a “no count” 40-45% of the time we kill each other. Then another and better server opens up for us. We all go in there. We all fly the same way we always have. Then we experience “no counts” roughly 5-10% of the time. It is a drastic difference!!!
· I like to open up server and test different things out with some of my closest flying buddies. We have discovered that “no counts” can actually occur when someone is just hovering and a single stinger shot is fired at them with seconds between each one. I am not saying we see “no counts” often this way, but I have definitely seen them.
· I get into a cannons battle with other enemy pilot. We both only have cannons, and no stingers! One of us gets a no count! I have experienced this many times. I have delivered the no count and received the no count during cannon battle many times.
I just wanted to list a few obvious examples of why a “no count” is not created by splash damage only. I know many pilots agree with him and are questioning what you said. I am sure you are very knowledgeable with computers and writing code and how games work, which I am not. But I do think very logically about everything, and I just have to say I disagree with what you said, for obvious reasons that I mentioned above.
I do agree with what Bluetiereign said about no counts on the previous page. No counts are obviously caused by many factors, not just splash damage.
Inso you are a VERY good man, and I thank you for everything you have done and continue to do to help this game out.
--- Raphael
Ham617
12-04-2003, 06:18 PM
Hello everyone,
Imagine if someone posted this and it was true.
I've learned of a new tactic that works pretty good but haven't tried it out yet.
It's actually a bug in the game but as long as no code is used to alter the game it's not a cheat.
There's a take off method right after being shot down that makes you invisible. It's a bug we've all experienced and usually Crash when someone tells you about it. But using the NC viewpoint,if you don't crash and just play along it's not a cheat. Just keep farping and shooting.
This will give those who use it an advantage until squads who would usually pursue this type of thing and not call it a cheat to figure it out and start using it.
Would the NC crowd here agree with this or is something wrong with the thinking as it is with NC's and other "exploited bugs"?
I'll continue next post.
Happy flying
Ham
Ham617
12-04-2003, 06:20 PM
Hello again all,
Another way to approach it is to start by simply state what a no count is. A no count is the score not updating after you've been blown up!!!!. It has no bearing what your intention was when you blew up!!! IF you hit a mountain running or dodging someone then they killed you and should get credit. If they shot you fair and square you should get credit. How can anyone disagree with that??
The matter at hand isn't whether or not anyone is modifying the ability to get kills, but modifying score keeping!!!!
Imagine if a football team was able to trick the score keeper into not counting scores for their opponent. Would that be cheating or not? I think most would agree it would be. This is exactly the same.
Just a thought.
Ham
Ham's thoughts explain it just the way I see it.
But the sadness of this discussion is that we cant do anything to fix no counts. :(
I dont care if someone calls me a winner! If noone would complain (winn), then nobody would care. And it doesnt help if only one person complains. Everyone who think this is not right should complain. I know Nova didnt care so far. But as long they havent droped the lobby, I still have a little bit of hope that they might do care.
Reaper
12-04-2003, 07:07 PM
As to rather splash damage causes no counts or not. I will still say there are few NCs in version 2 it scores slash damage as a point. Plain and simple. Say it's a glitch or any thing you want to . That's why I want AE for version 2.
There is some thing else players should know I run a map called killing spree. It's a death match map with all the spawn points set close together. Life expectancy on that map is 5 to 10 seconds, with 4 players logged in. That game is nothing but spawn and shoot. There must be more info flood the server in that game then any other i run. Well no counts happen seldom on that map. You know why ? becuase players don't have time to straf. As they come up they get killed. Players hate it. It gives the highest death ratio count on any map I ever played. As for training players to learn to watch for the shot that scores points and teach them to attack from an elivated postion out of a hard straf with there nose up I don't consider that going back wards. Thats what I train. Thats what no count forcing is. Players will explote any thing they can thats how hard it is to score points now. This still goes to tactics. Players are not the same skill we had a year ago. It has nothing to do with glitches. You have players that have played twice as many hours as they did at a year ago. The more you play the better every one gets. The scoring is flawed, Don't blame players for finding out how the scoring works and setting there play to it. This isn't a terrain glitch like the tunnels get where the player disapears. or a setting comming from co op that you can't make in dm or tdm. It is the scoring. I don't expect you to like it I don't either. But lets find a way to play that works. I stated already I am trying a micro to cycle weapons to work from that side of the problem. If the players that are that up set over this would start testing there theorys and try some diff tactics mabe we can learn some more information. How we fix this is with all of us players seeing what works and what doesn't. And sharing that info with the players you face. Right now i see 1 fix and that is version 2. theres no ae for it , Inso has already been working on it. There can be some cool stuff come out of this, I want to play at 1H, I may get my chance now. A lobby where you see if AE is on before you log in is being looked at. I spent many hours working on the attack I use that gave me more kills. I still get no counts !. There are some smart players in c4. If you want to fix this work on how to stop it.
Ham617
12-04-2003, 07:32 PM
If version 2 counts everything I just might start playing again :smilegrin:
In the real military world if a member of either side dies because he crashed, was hit by "splash" damage, or even pissed on an electrical socket he would be DEAD. and that counts as one for the other side, dont matter how. Of course friendly fire would count too, which should. If someone knows how to get version 2 let me know. I'll go out and buy it if that's what is shipping now. Then this topic will go away if I have to sit each match out to serve.
Sayuton
12-04-2003, 07:53 PM
press the smiley
:) (http://www.checkpointdelta.net/forum/viewthread.php?tid=1601)
Ham617
12-04-2003, 07:58 PM
Thanks,
If that's all there is to it this topic should be mute. If someone has an issue with NC's, and 2.0 is as easy as this fix, they should only play on servers with 2.0 running.
I'll let SON know about the patch.
Thanks again
Ham
I am sorry but this will not fix the problem now you have new issues. I was flying in a V2 server and 1 death scored as 3 kills on me and there was only one death. I have had 2 kills scored on several occasions for one death now tell me how that is going to help fix the problem.
OhNo
Ham617
12-04-2003, 08:29 PM
Well you're right there, and I've had the same in come and get it but here's the difference. It's random and hates everyone equally, it's not forced as far as I know. If your opponent had a way of maneuvering to cause that, I'd see a problem. If all fly by the same rules then it's fair. If some change the rules including scroing, than that's alittle different. Hope the nova pulling C4 from the server list isn't true is it?
Ham
It is not true at this time as nova says in there forum.
The extra deaths did not seem random to me when I was getting double deaths everytime I was killed.:mad:
Reaper
12-04-2003, 08:36 PM
It doesnt fix the problem It gives players the chose of what type of scoring they prefer.
1.5 flying to bring health to 0 with the last stinger or cannon fired making a direct hit. needed to score the point no counts if you don't hit the player with a direct hit and they get to 0 health and blow up.
or
version 2 splash damage scores as a point. with with the game making the kill reading as an error and saying you crashed when you didn't and losing a point on some attacks.
At this time it's as simple as that. Players choose what scoring system they prefer.
In version 2 you wait for AE if you want every 1 3h or exept 8h players and live with that and the efam bug for the time being.
:1drink.gif:
Reaper
12-04-2003, 08:40 PM
By the way come and get it is novas house server and runs version 2 out of califoria, That why there are 8h players there and the efam bug can be used.
Ham617
12-04-2003, 08:50 PM
Thanks
I'm digging in my closet for the Ole C4 disk to load LOL
I shelved it and unloaded it from the machine after getting ticked off about the forced NC issue about a month ago. I'll give it another try with V2.
Like I said, if rules and scoring is equal for both sides I can live with it, just so long as my opponent isn't determining my score. :smilegrin:
Str8_up
12-04-2003, 09:06 PM
Thank you No Escape….I do appreciate the response you made as well.
After a couple of days reading people responses I feel I can post again.
I’m glad everyone has finally gotten to the topic as it is.
Is it a glitch? I don’t know…they wrote it…..not me. For that matter…Can anyone here be knowledgeable enough to have that information? If you are….Please post the details.
I have seen a lot of interesting theories as to how an NC is made and of course every one of them have some validity.
Now…on to the facts. If an NC is a glitch…Which I don’t disagree…
Then why don’t they make a patch. I’ll play still…I love the game too much and the people in it.
Beyond that….I also agree with INSO, for the most part, regarding how NC’s occur.
There are so many factors….a move that can be obviously be mastered….and also comes just plain natural to others….
Thank you INSO for your insight into the details.
As far as it being the equal to chicken farping…well….you go the hell ahead and run into a hill.. I’m going to avoid your stingers… you die.. I will live…. Or die.. and there’s an NC for me.
That’s a fact partner. It’s going to happen no matter what smack appears in this forum or in any e-mail that gets sent out…. NC’s are a FACT.
Why is it Fact?
Because there is no patch number one… Number two, 90% of the pilots that I have gone up against in the past 2 months have pulled NC’s and will continue to. Most of them whether or not they mean to. One thing for sure… You wont see me accusing my buddies of cheating over something that everyone “Can do”….If they want.
If an NC is a cheat…then I guess I’m a cheat…Run me out of your server to whatever extent you must.
Now wont that be great.. Now everyone that was considered a friend is now considered a foe. You must be joking!! That will never happen!
The Fact is….Just as many of you have posted… Strafing away is most of an NC.
Everyone does it…….Another fact. …Some do it better.
I also Drive Straight into the stingers….(what?) yeah…straight into them.
When Firing my stingers…4-6 at a time…I alternate my guns…reducing the possibility of my opponent getting a No Count and raising my chances of getting a count.
I did this for several reasons. The first and foremost being…I was getting my butt smacked against pilots that were doing the exact same thing.
So most of them aren’t going to post…because of all the horrible things people are saying about people who pull them. Well…Not me…
I will play this game any way the community wants…..Let’s wait and see what truly happens in the servers. That will be the true test to see if everyone can make it there duty not to pull a No Count…..LMAO
My integrity stands….at least I can accept the truth and the inevitability of change that will continue to happen if we want to be better players. ( and will again if there’s a patch or someone has a fix of some sort)
Every Pilot knows that sooner or later they are going to go invisible….It’s a glitch in the game. Are some people going to exploit it….Yup…they are….they do…and they will continue to. I wont….I don’t need to. This topic is not even an equivalent comparison to No Counts. It’s not even in the same category…flat plain and simple.
Being invisible is something that just happens.. I don’t even know of a pilot that raised his hand to want to be invis. I have heard rumors of pressing this and that button to become invis…but see no benefit to this procedure…It’s obviously not fair.
However….It remains a fact in the game… and the only thing any of us can do is wait for a patch and adjust to the fact that there will always be an ignoramus that attempts to deceive another in the game. FACT
I am not deceiving anyone when as NC occurs… I am AVOIDING your stingers and shooting stingers and Cannons back at you. Nothing more or less. ( I also have hours of practice at it.)
The next FACT I want people to be aware of is that as we adapt in this game….the players become better.
People like CO Reaper and a few others continue to help pilots be more efficient and to learn how to fly without getting killed.. Isn’t that what this “GAME” is all about.. Getting to the top of the list.. Isn’t that the challenge or is everyone washed out?
That’s what makes a human….the desire to achieve…get better.. Welcome to the human race!!! (indecently also the reason why they put a number 1 at the top of the list instead of at the bottom)
On the other hand…..It’s great to be at the bottom of the list… It often puts me in my place (lol). Yeah…I am a human too..and have spent my time there as well.
The anti in C4 has been upped many times in the past year. From sticks and their macros to NC’s and Extreme Fast Cannons.
Let me tell you… My X 45 doesn’t shoot out cannons at 500 rpms…..but if you want a SURE KILL…..shoot fast with your cannons and you will get that count. You don’t and won’t hear me wine about it…..I’ll simply adjust to your flying technique and eventually I will still whoop your butt.
There are plenty who use Extreme Rapid fire as well. I don’t even have the ability with my stick to produce those numbers…..They are killing me with it. Is it Cheating too? It’s not fair that they have access to a feature in the game that I don’t , right?
At least with an NC….everyone has the opportunity to have one….
I guess what I’m trying to say is..
A) We all have to adjust…
As I have learned to play this game, I have had to ask many others how to do this and how to do that.
B) Let’s be real.. NC’s are going to happen… (unless Someone can fix)
C) Let’s not bash other players and call them cheaters…..It’s not our fault they made it work like that…Join a different server that doesn’t score the same way if you don’t like it.
D) I will continue to help other players ON PURPOSE. This will be the best defense against NC’s currently. Join me and any other C4’ers that Have the know how!!
Perhaps NOVA or someone could write a one stinger kill!!! That would be more realistic yet!!
In the mean time, I’m going to avoid your stingers…and I suggest you do the same to mine….
Seriously…..I’m here to help in any way I can….Including a fix….
See you all in the friendly skies…… Later…Str8up
Ham617
12-04-2003, 09:15 PM
Once again, and it's mute with me since I wont play in non V2 server anymore.
If you avoid being killed it's not a cheat and it's legit. If you are killed and you do anything to prevent the FACT you were killed from being counted it's A: skill B: Cheat
Thanks again INSO for the V2 fix.
Str8_up
12-04-2003, 09:18 PM
Oh yeah....also....I prefer the challenge of a pilot today that can pull an NC. I actually look forward to seeing who can master the technique each time I go up against him or her.
It's no offense to anyone....It is just my preferenece. I fly for fun and to help others....It's a great game... and I must have been writing my other post when you responded Reaper...
That was awsome..!!! Thanks man!!
Also started a fourth page on this stuff...he he...
Did you think it would be this hot N/E? ... Good one. Cya out there bud!!
Later....Str8
Ham617
12-04-2003, 09:36 PM
Well think about it. If you prefer to play against someone that can pull off a N/C you're with US!!! I prefer to be able to shoot someone and blow them up, It means I BEAT HIM/HER. Problem is that it didn't count. The better pilot won but wasn't credited for it.
Wow this might go to page 5 LOL
Originally posted by Str8_up
... 90% of the pilots that I have gone up against in the past 2 months have pulled NC’s and will continue to. ...
Thats exactly what will fasten the demise of C4!!!
Now what do u think? Every or allmost every player learns how to accuse no counts. Of course it will not allways happen and u be happy u killed somebody and got the count because he didnt do the right move. But will it still be fun if the game turns out to steal a count then to get a count by killing my opponent? NC's are the funkiller #1 in this game. A lot of players dont play anymore just because of this one fact and thats why we have to shout out loud and maybe...... yeah maybe someone hears it.
The more players learn how to accuse no counts, the more players will stop playing.
And thats what its all about!!!
N_E
I want to Know just one thing does the SCORE mean that much to everyone? Not me I just play NC no NC lagg CIs. I think if all this bothers everyone so much break your disc and throw it in the trash.and don't play.If the score does matter that much just catch me in a server and say you need a drone I will fly around and let you shoot me. thats just how much I care,and I think it is time to sotp shouting or crying. JUST PLAY THE GAME. all this CRAP makes me want to break my disc.
Don't cry Don't complain "JUST say OhNo":mad:
Bluetiereign
12-04-2003, 11:27 PM
I don't know about throwing around the word 'demise'. But for the sake of carrying your thought a bit further into the 'oblivion'... I will pick up the 'Devil's Advocate' stance and run with it...
In advance, I will apologize if I offend... but I'm taking an opposing stance.
What you may want to consider is not whether your participation (or any other, for that matter...) is VITAL to the continuation of the C4 community - but exactly what your participation involved.
So far... I have seen the same general apathy towards just doing what would be the considerate thing - and turning of the repeated firing and macros and enjoy the game 'au naturale'.
" I'm set up to fire 2 stingers.... " " I'm experimenting with rotating cannons and stingers " "I'm setup to fire four stingers" - and the best excuse for your exploiting (and that is what it is ). " well, everybody else is doing it, I'm simply adapting " This is BS and avoidance of the issues. You sound like 'the busted' in a riot filled street of looters.
I'll tell you something - there is something someone talks about that rings so true, but no-one really cares to hear... really hear... concerning 'choosing with whom you play....'
We all have our opinions... and it is great to respect anothers... but, if someone does fix it - do you really think they would or should share it with the likes of you and your mindless 'sheep at the slaughter ' attitude...? Who knows, maybe there is already a fix - and while you mindless spectors are touting your 'exploits' - you are actually only digging yourselves deeper into the world of unfulfilling play.
Yeah guys and gals, ya'll 'come and get it' now - we'll be sure and show this 'dead end' sign to those left, while those in the right are flying the fair skies.
Str8_up
12-04-2003, 11:31 PM
LOL Ohno....Np bud...don't mean to be a whiner....not trying to be...lol
N/E....
What do you mean by accuse?
I'm missing something maybe?....
Anyhow...On the flip side of what you said....(and what you said may be true)... Why not just learn how to pull them....You might find that it is challenging....
You should let me show you...then you will see how it's done...then...maybe it will help clear some of this up.
Catch me some time...i mean that....It will also help you defend against the NC's...Thats how I learned to Strafe and avoid...
Later bud...Str8
Bluetiereign
What is fair and what is not that is the question
Reaper
12-05-2003, 12:41 AM
No this is about choosing the version you want to play. If the no counts bother you that much play version 2. What did you expect players to do, when you posted it as cheating, not defend what we consider a tactic. As far as you saying you shouldn't have used cheating you just wanted to spice it up, That flys here but after what 1 of your team mates did to me over yahoo when you started this thead I don't buy that either. A lot of players don't like this tactic that is fine. The fact that there is another version that does't have near as many NCs has been made public before this thread ever started. Yet players still want to complain about it. This is simple play people that want to play the way you do. Claiming the no count forcers are what is causing players to leave c4 is bs. There are so few that really understand it. They make a small group that play c4. Most of the time we play with each other. C4 was in trouble long before this truly became a problem. At this point in time the server with the most players most of the time is come and get it. The reason so many players use it is you can play there 8h. So don't tell us about using a glitch or running players out of c4. Most players fire way to many stingers much to fast. They dont straf well, controle there heat, or there radar sig. Those a skills in the game and part of forcing no counts. The only diff between a player that forces is he knows this and attacks with it in mind. The reason I have posted so much on this is I put forcing no counts in the public view and addressed it months ago on my website. Untill I did that and and started training players how the scoring affects the way you attack. Players never talked about forcing. Players complained ever time they got 1. Some of those players now understand why. Thats not running players out of c4. Thats explaining how the game scores. Same as I have done here the last few days. I have taking heat from both sides over this. The complainers want me to stop. Some of the forcers want me to let players learn it on there own like most of them did. Guess what ever player in c4 can choose to do what they want. I made my choise, play version 1.5 and ask Inso to make AE for you. I can still play version 2 with players I like if that's what they want to play. This is just 1 complaint in c4. I have seen LMB take crap over camping, players accuse others of being 8h in a server running AE. Call other players cheaters. And just whine because they are losing. All of this has been BS. Thats why squads fight and c4 is in trouble. We can't make players play the way we want. You players want to help C4 ?. Start by treating the player you face the way you want to be treated. Take the griffon in a server and help him. But stop all the BS.
Bluetiereign
12-05-2003, 01:15 AM
Ok OhNo... one last post... PURELY...in the spirit of debate... and not necessarily my opinion..
__________________________________________________ ________________
As the 'Devils Advocate':
What is fair and what is not that is the question.
Simply put - Not to everybody. There are some who saw the 'exploitations' for what they were from the beginning. Fair is what made the game what it was - not what it currently is. There was a time when you died, the score reflected it. There was a time when you killed and it counted. There was a time when you pulled the trigger once and fired once. There was a time when you didn't die because you strafed and that was a successful strafe manuveur - not a no count.
Keep up the avoidance, and hiding behind your ethical debates - and attempting to divide the truth - when you put it all together, it is still going to add up to the truth. What is fair is what makes the game work as intended.
BTW, have you played a V20 server where everyone cut off that repeat or macros firing yet ? You couldn't be having trouble finding enough people willing to play that way, could you ?
__________________________________________________ ________________
In all honesty, I really have other 'fish to fry' and my real interests are elsewhere... Aside from this - I have nothing to gain here either way. As far as I can see... this issue is like watching people fly thru Mtns in a CI. Who is to decide whether it is intentional or not... me ? Pfffffft.
IMHO... this (no counts) is not my problem - finding players of like mind and connections is. I began playing C4 with a 233mhz 16mb vid card and 56k connection - in the middle of my complaining about my poor performance (which is true to this day..lol ) due to system defeciency... I was told by someone that if my system couldn't perform - either upgrade or get over it. That bothered me then - but not now. It was an actually a sound piece of advice. Apply that to choosing with whom you play. Upgrade (or simply change) your associations... or get over it. Sad...but truly a sound piece of advice.
Str8_up
12-05-2003, 02:41 AM
Goooooooo Reapor!!
You win!!! lol
Ok already....who's defending what now?.......
I've never even seen you in any open servers whomever you are Blue.....
IF you would let us know...perhaps we could talk on a different note. ...But....I don't know who you are....
I'm sure you understand that.
Or do I know you and you don't want your name associated with your opinion?
Either way....Your correct about one thing... This is worse than watching a plant grow. (going nowhere) :stupid2:
Like I've said 2 other times..... we will see what really happens in the servers....If you want...I'll probably be in Reapors Revenge or something like that...hehe.
Good luck all...and I encourage you to join us in our servers.
Later.....Str8
Animal
12-05-2003, 03:32 AM
You want to know something about all this you guys actually have a good way to express some of your feelings but everyone does not know how to put them so they put there words in the best way they can but it always ends up starting trouble anyways, like myself I start trouble sometimes but i don't do it all the time it is im tired of hearing the whining about the Nc's and some of the good pilots even whine about them.Most of the pilots that fly I hope they fly for fun but some pilots take there games seriously which is alright but it is hard to see the good pilots whine about an Nc the only thing it tells you is that you are doing something wrong with your flying try to fix. I try to help most of the new pilots out because I would hate to see Novaworld drop C4 because it will be hard to talk to the friends that we have met through the game. But let me get down to the point here I'm tired of everyone accusing my buddy Terror of cheating and what he said in SON's fourm yeah I say it was wrong but some of things he did say was true but you guys judge people by the way they say things you dont know the history of them, so you really would not know how to act towards them, but I have kept my saying out for a long time on all this but I said my peace.
Dont come to with a problem
come to me with a solution....................
You said it all REAPER thanks again for the stand up person you are, and all you have done for C4. I will fly with you anytime......................:099.gif:
OhNo
GarretJax
12-05-2003, 10:09 AM
Hey Blue, after reading all this stuff I believe you have said it the best.....if the game was played as originally intended....without the Stick macros this thread would probably not be here....when i first started..(using single shots..imagine that!) the nc problem was very rare and didnt seem to be a problem, at first i thought it was a cheat being able to fire so many at one time...didnt think it lent to the realism of the game, but like most ..if not all... when i started gettin racked by macros I made the change myself and joined the crowd in order to stay competative.....I believe you are right in saying we have created our own monster here.........now we just keep makin it bigger and more powerful everytime we try and get around it.....For myself and the fact i like the game so much and the community involved (best i've had the pleasure to play with) lets all throw away are macros and play the game as it was orginally intended.....we are a small community and word gets around very fast .........so it is not impossible.........maybe tough to get the newbies involved but at a Squadron level it could be made unlawful to use macros during match play.........would be interesting to find out wouldnt it!
Bluetiereign
12-05-2003, 11:31 AM
:icon_super.gif:
As I stated before... this debate for me is moot point. I argued this point long... long ago.
I'm not saying that this is the entire problem... But it does seem that removing the variables instead of adding them is a very logical approach to narrowing down the root cause.
And it will remain logical - whether you know me or not.
Str8_up
12-05-2003, 11:39 AM
You still havn't said who you are...
and although this has now opened a BIGGO can a WORMS.....I will go into my friends servers that Don't like NC's....and I WILL Respect there server rules...Just as they will come into mine...and respect them....
The servers again...WILL TELL the story.
LOL this gets better by the minute!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOW I was in a server this morning and I heard a guy complaining about cannon use......... I am the one that started the cannon use hoping it would help the No_Count problems. You can avoid my stingers but not my cannons, before I got it down to a science some one caught on to what I was doing and it has spread like a virus macro. They have been turned up as high as 5000 rpm great no problem. I will shoot you passive and avoid your cannons that works great too. The thing is, where does this all stop if you cannot play the game and adjust to the changes. Then I say break your disc and throw it in the trash we all evolve and that is just what this game is doing, evolving. The players are getting better and I as well as Reaper are helping them, we have to adapt to that all the time. I myself I love the challenge seems no one wants to adjust but instead they just whine. Whine why would you whine about cannons when it is a solution to No_ Counts. The pilot that was complaining is one that said he would never fly in a server with me because I cause No_Counts. I found a solution to his problem and he whines about that too. So in my opinion these kind of guys are the ones that really should throw C4 in the trash and quit playing. Yes we all catch hell as Reaper said, LMB catch it for camping, that is ok I found a way to beat that too. IT WAS A CHALLENGE try looking at the game that way. I would be willing to train any pilot that wants to know how to do that too. We all have to learn and some of us have to be teachers. Suicide farpers--- that is a good one too.... let them do it I.... listen to where the respawn and kill them on the farp or not far from it!!! What did they gain?.........LOL.
I was in V2 server when this all took place to day. I was flying 3h as I always do and guess who was still #1 on the list. without any No_Counts But I had several double deaths.
Enough for now........:stupid2:
Oh I forgot checked with the Doctor he said I would be alright when the whinning stops.:baddevil:
Inso «Š*§*§»
12-05-2003, 05:23 PM
Hey Reaper, it would seem that the majority prefer to keep v15 as it is and not move onto v20. So, do you still see a need for me to even finish ae for it? As I have played a whole wooping 6 hours in the last 10 months, I truthfully could care less. If they want it they got it, if they like it the way it is, I see no point in wasting time on it.
Funny thing to some of us 'old veterans' - we hashed these issues out long before many of you started playing the game! I, for one, left realizing that it would never change. I come back 10 months later only to find the same arguments and mud slinging competitions. My return was fueled by one person, Reaper! I'm not here to whine, not here too cry, not here to tell you how you should be playing or how you should be having fun, I'm here to do a favor for a friend, and in some ways, as I released the first ae, that truthfully is why you still have a game to play. I felt obligated to do a new one for 20. I think this thread started out on the wrong foot merely by its title, it got a little better and actually became a topic worth discussing, but it seems that hot heads and narrow minds are pushing it back into oblivion. Have no fear from this 'old veteran' being set in his ways, as once AE is finished and until the BS is, I will be as well. Keep in mind if it wasnt for the veterans you so easily spite, you would not have the game you play today!! And, if it was not for the BS you would have a game ten times the one you do today!!!!!! I have over a dozen different utilities for C4, as well as 73 maps and 146 new terrains. When the crap is gone and smoke has cleared, lets see who has a game on!
This ole dog will be on the porch while all you pups are chasing your tails!!!!
Reaper let me know what you want to do!
GarretJax
12-05-2003, 05:36 PM
Hey SlapShot.........need some further technical references on posting a no count being an "evasive manuever"......... lmao :dance: I thought people were purposely facing themselves into the missles........anyway its some of what i read......:spin:
You ask A question INSO... Yes we do still need the AE for V20 I would not want anyone, to have to suffer over this mess that is going on. I have a great deal of respect for you and what you have done for the game and I hope that I did not offend you. Just stating my feelings and ideas on the matter.
Ham617
12-05-2003, 07:05 PM
Thanks again INSO for providing support when NOVA left us high and dry and washed thier hands of us. In other games such as BHD they would have adopted changes such as yours and required the upgrade to play on-line, then this wouldn't have been an issue. Being a slowly aging vet myself, I as well as others tend to dig the heals in when something isn't right rather than run and live with it. You took it one step further and fixed the problems. Those that do not want 2.0 are simply dont want an even playing or scoring field. If I were you I'd be frustrated too and would consider telling all to go to hell. Just know some do appreciate the work and effort.
Ham
Str8_up
12-05-2003, 07:29 PM
hmmm.....
RED BARON
12-05-2003, 08:28 PM
Inso, I for one would love to see the fix for v20. I am one of the old dogs, I have seen a lot of the bull you have taken from the ungratful few.
You have spent many long hard hours of work on C-4. Most of us can understand you are doing this for us (US) and to inprove the game. Its a lot to ask of some one for a mere thank you.
I played on your test server when you had it up, I think this V20 fix would be the best thing that ever happened to the game. I hope you can see it in your heart to release v20 soon. Thanks Again
Sayuton
12-05-2003, 09:02 PM
i dunno 'bout the rest of yu, but this entire thread makes me want to pat evrybuddy on the back,, rite a new macross ,, and scream at the top of my lungs -- ' it wll be ok, we,ll adapt to haveing the glichers run the show ' .
Sayuton
12-05-2003, 09:58 PM
--But some saw it fit to have mercey on me, and help me learn how to play the game in online mode.(I.E. Reaper,TerrorX,Dee,SlapShot,Animal,OhNo, and a few others--
:lol4: :bow.gif: :rofl: :bow.gif: :lol:
--sorry -- :nono.gif:
:rofl:
Let's debate. :)
[Edited on 12-6-2003 by Bluetiereign]
WiperSix«L·R·S»
12-05-2003, 10:17 PM
Ok, so we have finally come to page 7 - the real issue: How to play games on the internet. This issue extends beyond C4, so if you want to be pessimistic, the anwswer is to only play with people you know and always in a closed server. This can become boring, however, since many find enjoyment in making new friends. The problem is inherent in the technology. Instead of having a rigidly defined playing field ( ie. monopoly board) you have an amiguous and malleable field which can be stretched in numerous directions, ethical or not, self mutating, and with parameters that extend beyond the context of the game itself (connection speed, hardware) all the way to the hackable issues (cabling, mutilated/dropped packets, game hacks). The difference between vendors even affects the game = for those of you who play bf1942, look how often ea tries to uptdate the game to prevent hacks (and still fails). The difference is that a game like bf has enough players that it now has leagues, and since the game servers can log well, the leagues have evolved into authorities that kick out members who cheat - a great thing mind you, it works ! Unfortunately, and as you can see from the pessimism so evident (unfortunately) in inso and blue's posts, a lot of the vet players have given up on the game (which bums me out, but which I understand).
So where is this diatribe going ? nowhere. exactly the same place C4 is going unless it gets some help.
which direction should it go ? that is the real issue. These are the multiple directions it is going now:
A) purist. fire one missle at a time, no repeat macros. forget it, play it on lan server or with friends. aint gonna happen on net.
B) wanna be hacker. " gee, I found this program that can lag our opponents server so we can win" - this type of person does play c4, they cause grief for everyone. doom to the game.
C) "I just wanna win" cabler, any macro goes. if I can hide my copter in a wall of a building I will. doom to the game
. . . ad infinitum.
the bottom of the line is that the vendor of the game has to support it. by supporting it, they provide regular updates that help the game stay sane and avoid most (never all) of the above. If nova has truly decided to drop support completely for C4, then it is over. There are not enough guys like inso around to save it.
Don't blame the people who stretch the game a little, its a natural evolution of computer games.
Don't blame the people who want the game to stay as it was originally, these type of people are in every game.
The people who kill a game are those that think that they are so important that they can publicly lambast others for their opinions, thinking they are important individuals because of their status in a computer game . HAHA. ITS SO PATHETIC. These are the fun killers. If the game continued to be fun, would all the players be dropping like flies. Would all these vets be so pessimistic ? Nope, its the fun killers who kill a game. The holier than thous, the Admiral this and general that, and those who feel the need to pose cursing on others' web sites. The people whose opinions are always the (only) right ones. You know who you are, so pat yourselves on the back.
(Insert violin sounds here)
Hopefully when the last c4 server closes for the final game, I will meet some of you (who I have had much fun with) in other games, and we will play again, and have fun again.
And I will have fun, because otherwise, I won't be playing.
Until then,
its been a lot of fun,
kill ya later
Wiper
(oh, and merry xmas too to everyone if I don't happen to see you between now and then (not being sarcastic)):ar15:
Reaper
12-05-2003, 11:35 PM
I am going to end my part of the posting with this last 1. When I posted to have INSO put a new AE out for C4, I beleived it would help solve the no count problem. I was wrong. Inso and I talked about what would happen and he was right. There is more wrong here than players glitching or cheating or what you think is fair. First to blue, You don't have to tell who you are I have seen you help players here at delta for years. The down loads is full of your maps. I don't care if You use another name and don't play open servers you contibution to C4 speaks for it's self. For all the rest of you. This isn't just a game. We spend money to up grade our pcs, we get broad band and some of us play every day. That is why this is so heated. At this point in time I don't care if Inso makes ae or not. I don't run it on version 1.5 when I play for fun unless some askes me to. And I have just about had my fill of C4 , squads and fighting. The game has lost it's fun for me. I need to deside if I should be still playing now any way and by the look of these posts I am not the only 1. So I am going to leave you all with a question ?. Some one was willing to do some programing to help give you a game with few no count's. Forcers, If you force to get kills why would you not want to play a version where you don't need to do it any more. You get them too?. The players that hate no counts so bad, Why wouldn't you stand up and back AE for version 2 above all else?. Un till you all can answer those questions it wont matter if INSO finishes AE for version 2 or not. Now to you INSO I am sorry I asked you for this. I remember what you said when You left c4 and why you did. I all most didn't. If the players in C4 want Ae for version 2 now it's your turn to show if it will be of any value or not. I have come to beleive it wont. I can play version 2 with out Ae with players that I trust any way. There will be few new players come in to c4 now to give us new players to play with. And what we have here now is only going to drop off alittle more each week. :flames:
Bluetiereign
12-06-2003, 12:36 AM
7 pages and approximately 1500 reads --And two excellent posts.
Yeppers.. a 'purist' I am... and thus at disagreement (and a standstill) with more than a few - up to and including the use of (or teaching ) - the forcing of a no count and macros use.
However, I cannot disagree with the solid and well put thinking I just read. A salute to the both of you.
I also want to thank Inso for his great work. And yes, I would like to see V2 a/e.
This is also my last post in this tread. I just still want to say I have never used macros or programming when I play C4. I play it with my keyboard and mouse.
A player was bigmouthing that he allready found 3 ways on v2 server to accuse no counts. That's what gave me the rest and why I started this treat. Of curse on v2 servers without a/e. If a/e for v2 does not work to keep it a fungame for me, then I'll do just like Wiper said. I'll go and find me a other game where I can have fun.
N_E
Ham617
12-06-2003, 11:07 AM
This is the last post in this thread for me too. Unfortunately what I saw last night was alittle disheartening. INSO put up a server with 2.0 and A/E. It was full for awhile until the NC crowd got tired of an even game and migrated to a 1.5 server. Sorry to see that, but I think it's not time to give up. If we can convince a few squads to migrate to 2.0, Especially LRS with the ever popular reloaded server, and not announce that it's 2.0, people might slowly migrate.
It's been an interestign thread, I usually dont get involved in forums, but suddenly I'm in 4 threads here LOL. Thanks whomever maintains it.
HAM
StrayCat
12-06-2003, 11:50 AM
Wow ... I just spent an hour reading all of this, glad to see you you have all worked it out ... LMFAO
I still visit this site on a regular basis, its so nice to see that some things will never change.
ITS A GAME, IF YOUR NOT HAVING FUN PLAYING IT ... FIND A DIFFERENT ONE
Plain and simple
A quick hello to some of my old buds.. Inso, Blue, Reaper, and of course Wiper ... hope your all doing well.
Sorry , dont really know you newer guys, GOOD LUCK to all of you. I still love C4, but to much BS, as usual.
Well this is my last post on this matter.It is very sad that it could not be debated. There have been a lot of things said and they where taken the wrong way like teaching meaning helping a new pilot learn how to fly and there are a lot out there now that are try to help. I am one of them.Sadly no one did that for me it was like learn the best you can.
INSO's server yes I was there and did leave no fault of my own I had a computer problem. I went there in support of the V20 AE the first thing that was said when I entered the server was OH THE NC KING why would that make me want to stay I did take a screen shot of that if anyone would like to see it. INSO that will not stop me I will fly in your server anytime you have it up thanks for trying to help. I truly beleive it is needed for those that want it.
The things that have happened in the last few days are very sad,there is no more GET RANKED which was the best server I ever flew in. There was very little problems in this server Reaper kept things in check,and I beleive most had a lot of fun and it was a good place to help new pilots because of the size of the server.Hope you reconsider Reaper I for one will truly miss the one place it was fun again.
INSO please continue with the AE for V20
it may help some of the problems. THE BOTTOM LINE IS WE SHOULD ALL HAVE A CHOICE.......................
OhNo
MadRocker
12-06-2003, 02:18 PM
Howdy All,
Mad here.... When i first got this game I was clueless as to what version I bought. I played all 31 missions (K/B & mouse) then got online (dial-up). I pretty much got me arse whooped on a daily basis. No one told me bout the 8H thing, the rotor vol. thing... nuttin. I'm still here. If everyone is so hard up for V2 please send it to me. Inso make A/E for it. I will be more then happy to host it. I am also sure that the drama will not end. Somewhere along the line someone will start a controversy and the beechin will start. Anymore I simply get the satisfaction of watchin me victims fall and burn (still with K/B & mouse). I also would like to leave you good people wit me favorite C4 sayin.... Anyone wanna touch me Hiney =) ....Peace
remnant
12-06-2003, 02:31 PM
i really think that this issue has blown over the top. especially the son forum (www.sonsquad.com) . i think that ppl really need to get a hold of themselves
(myself included) before blowing their mouth off. certain pilots also need to get a life.
i said everthing i want to on the son forum, and i dont care wat ppl think of me.
rem
p.s. i like these smilies...lol...:butt: , :ar15: .
SierraMike
12-06-2003, 10:36 PM
Hi@all!
This is SierraMike, leader of the =EFA= European Fighter Alliance.I feel sad about what things i must read here. Do some people forget, that C4 should make fun and we all want fun and no cheating? I will say it: =EFA= will never agree to the force NCs "tactic". Its NO part of the game!!!Its poor and bad and only could come from people who have normaly no chance to win.
=EFA= will ever play fair, with the normal possiblities and only with them.
If a EFA-member use "Force-NCs" he will have to leave my sqaud 10 sec. after the message reach my ear!
I will support every sqaud that is against that cheat stuff too!
We had a battle vs. ***: ******* laugh about us, cause he use this cheat, so i had to abort the battle. Bad for all others, cause we expect more from a sqaud like ***.
So thats my position!
SierraMike=EFA=
Edited to Include: I appreciate your input. I have personally flown against you, as late as last night. Let us debate issues, not accuse individual players and entire squads. Thanks Mike. :)
[Edited on 12-7-2003 by Bluetiereign]
Animal
12-07-2003, 01:08 AM
ANIMAL APS
Well I hate to say it but most of you guys don't like the No Count. It is also your opinion about what you like. I happen to like to fly version 1 because it seems to be harder to kill people that force and it is a challenge to me to beat the person that can force it. It is just a game and many want to call it a cheat…… and yes people use it but it is second nature to most people that fly vesion1. Yes I have played version 2 and my favorite person to go up against in version 2 is Pitfighter. He makes it fun even though he hides…. everyone has there way to fly. I like to fly with everyone because there is always someone better than yourself. That makes the game fun to try and beat a person that forces. Some people don't like to try to beat it. They think it is hard work to try and kill a pilot that can force every time you go up against them and I do use the No count move a lot… but I don’t consider myself a cheat because I force. When I do the maneuver I’m always available to kill. I do hide most of the time, which makes it hard for people to kill me, but I’ve learned the move to hide from my buddy Pitfighter. Again, everyone has there way to fly and the only way that I can get better is to combine all the styles of flying, which in turn makes it harder to kill me. I have tried to help many pilots out in c4, but most of them won’t listen to me so they will just have to learn by themselves. I'm always willing to help any pilot out. I also get called a cheat and people say that I know how to manipulate packets. I would not have a clue what that is or how to do it for that matter.
All I do is try to have fun and people make it a big deal that a person forces no counts, Yeah I get tired of them when I can not get a count on a person but I don't type it and say stuff about other pilots when I get angry about it. I just try harder the next time when I go up against them. It's no big deal… I live with it. I'm just tired of everyone saying someone is cheating and all the other kind of BS that is going to happen in any game you play. I just wish we could get along in a game but it will never happen. I try to make friends but I come up with more enemies every time I play.
I just want to have fun and make friends. I’ll keep trying…
Killer
12-07-2003, 01:38 AM
I have been playing this game since it came out and it seems like no matter if anything on this game ever gets fixed everyone still complains and it is just a game. Some people force no counts but I just think of it as a challenge to kill them. This game use to have two pages of servers with people in everyone, now it is hard to find 5 people in a server at a time.
crazyzac
12-07-2003, 03:47 AM
come on guys ................. more comments DON'T STOP NOW THERE HAS TO BE MORE :boxing_smiley.gif: :argue.gif:
[Edited on 12/7/2003 by crazyzac]
GarretJax
12-08-2003, 11:02 AM
to join the crowd in making a last post to this thread (sorry Zac lol)....we have seen both extremes on this topic.....some maybe a bit too extreme (calling people cheaters i believe is way to extreme) but being new to these types of forums myself it was actually great to see both sides of the coin as one would say....... to me it only shows the dedication all of us have for the game....Being sort of a purist as some would put it I was never an advocate of Forcing NC's which is why I stated my opinion on this thread as such but after reading some of these posts pilots such as Reaper, OHNO,Slapshot and Animal have shown me there side and there dedication and hard work as "pilots" in adapting to unstable conditions in the game......how this could be seen as anything else but good for the community is beyond me........so hats off to all who have posted here no matter what you opinion!....... :dance:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.